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Track brakes question

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  • Track brakes question

    On my 1.6 car, with all 1.6 parts( has to be for spec, and I am keeping it spec legal).

    Rotors are advanced auto parts white box all the way around. Fronts were new before my last AMP and Little Tally trackdays. Rears have been on for a while. Date back to the old fronts I built the car with.

    Pads are Hawk HP+ for both front and rear. New fronts before Tally and AMP.

    I have been running the same brand pass and rotors since I built the car.

    Back about a year ago, I had no brake problems. everything was great, 8-10 trackdays on a set of pads, rotors I replaced at two sets of pads, no problem. (these rotors were bought at the same time as the first rotors on the car.

    At AMP middle of last year I started getting some inconsistent braking, causing me to have a lot more lock ups. (this is about 5 trackdays into these pads). I have been running a range of tires, (BFG Rivals, Hoosier SM7's and Maxxis RC1's)
    Tried working through it, same thing at another event later in the year.

    I looked at the rotors, and there was a weird texture I had not seen on them before.
    Advance has a 2 year warranty, replace to new rotors, ensure they are clean, put on a new set of pads(HP+).
    This is before Tally and AMP.
    Tally, was no problem everything went great. AMP in the morning was wet, everything was ok. Both days are on well worn Rivals, so not the most aggressive grip, should be slightly easier on the brakes.

    In the afternoon it started to dry out. and the inconsistent braking returned.
    also, the pattern on the rotors returned.
    see below.

    So, being the only thing that was different in the set before these was a different batch of rotors from advance, I guessed it was a metallurgy problem in the Chinese rotors. apparently either they haven't fixed it, or that wasn't my problem.

    It really seems like it might be pad material, though, why now?

    The above is the rear, a small area, which seems more normal to what I have seen.

    So, in trying to figure out what is going on here.
    Could I be just going too hard on HP+? notice the powder coating baking off the backing plates.
    Or is there a metal quality issue with the rotors?

    I know a lot of the spec guys use full race pads, like cobalt's, carbotech's, etc.
    though, I have heard the Hawk pads are not the best.
    I am thinking of going to a full race pad, but with still instructing, and using 200TW tires, I don't want to cause myself more headaches.
    I am taking suggestions here as well.
    Last edited by Brian129; 04-02-2017, 08:49 AM.

  • #2
    Poor quality rotors, heat spots, overheated pads.

    Use a better quality blank rotor and mate them with race pads. Mate rotors with the pads, don't mix them.


    • #3
      You've run some pretty sticky tires for Hawk HP+ and that could definitely overheat the pads/rotors like that. Give some Carbotechs a try (XP8 or XP10 in front, maybe XP8 for now while you keep the HP+ on the back and run street tires). No need for swapping pads back and forth on a car that isn't a DD, either of those compounds will work fine driving to/from the track. A true track pad should last longer for you too. The Centric 120 series of blank rotors should help as well and they're still very inexpensive.
      - Ryan
      1999 Miata (Red) - Stock non-VVT, Haltech, Ohlins, 949 6ULs and NT01s


      • #4
        Totally agree with the above statements. I run Carbotech XP10's front and XP8's rear on Centric rotors, the high carbon ones from Tire Rack. Tire Rack usually has free shipping on brake parts, and their prices aren't bad either. I had the Hawk HP+ on my E36, never felt like they were up to the task on track.

        * edit, I run 200TW tires without any issues. Both Yokohama AD008R's last 1.6 track car, and Rivals on my current 1.6 car.
        Last edited by blk95r; 04-03-2017, 05:34 PM.


        • #5
          I do like Carbotechs, but they will eat rotors. So will PF pads. Please, please stop using bargain rotors and replacing them under warranty. I have had good experiences with the Centric rotors. Brembo and NAPA premium rotors as well. Hawk HP+ are fine for canyon hooning, but when I tracked on them I dial back to 6 or 7/10ths.

          Maybe consider replacing the caliper boots as well, just for insurance. Sometimes they start degrading from the heat and start collecting compromised guide pin grease, which basically makes everything sticky. I had an issue with hot spots on the FL corner. It took me a while to find some contamination in the hole one of the boots passes through. That crud was constricting the guide even though it was clean and had fresh grease. Chased the hole with a drill, new boot, then everything was copacetic. The issue hasn't returned.

          good luck!


          • #6
            Agree on carbo's being hard on rotors and don't like them for that reason. I have had good luck on cheap blanks, though I replace them with the pads.

            16 hours on HP+ and twice that on rotors is really pushing it, especially with micky mouse 1.6 sized stuff and slicks. I was able to overcook that setup on the street with 200TW tires, back when I had a NA6.

            Recommend you look into PFC or Rayestos pads, which will be easier on the rotors and wear well. I am currently having great luck with the Raybestos ST43 on my 323, which is a million times easier on the rotors than the Carbotechs, wear great, don't cook, and stop unbelievably well. I have roughly 15 track hours plus a few hundred street miles on a set right now; they look about half consumed. I will get at least 1 more 7-hour enduro out of them, probably plus some track days and/or street use. Only downside is the price tag, but being able to run an entire Enduro weekend, up to 24 hours, on a single set of front brakes is amazeballs.

            | 10AE-T | BEGi S4 | GT2560r | Enthuza | 6UL | MS3Pro PNP|
            | 2001 Track Rat | Enthuza | Jenvey | MS3Pro PNP | Exocet in Progress|
            | 1992 323 | Wrong-wheel-drive Miata Endurance Racecar|


            • #7
              I moved to the Centric 120 series rotors, and G-loc R10/R8 pads.
              everything was good, though I noticed some heat on the rotors.

              Then this past weekend, I went back to AMP(Atlanta motorsports park) and I'm getting a bit of the pad material left on the rotors, and I am getting a high frequency vibration in the pedal(not warped rotor). I am also getting a lot of instability in the car, and what feel like rear wheel hop.

              Here is a clip from AMP, its a sloppy entry into 1, but I did not have a lot of confidence in the car having the brakes on my mind. The instability and what feels like wheel hop was similar on other laps.
              watch the shifter once I get on the brakes, and then as I downshift and turn in.

              I'm trying to understand why I continue to get pad material globing on the rotors. Also, the vibration / wheel hop.
              Last edited by Brian129; 07-03-2017, 05:21 AM.


              • #8
                I'd recommend Carroll Smiths Prepare to Win if you don't already have it.. Look at his brake bedding write up and follow it. I think he comes back to it in Engineer to Win as well.
                David Luney - Suwanee GA
                [email protected]
                04 RX-8, 10 Black MS3, 08 Red MS3, 06 550i, 05 325i 92 Spec Miata and a parts car or two.


                • #9
                  I have good luck with EBC's I moved to yellow stuff with 1.8 fronts and I've been pretty hard on them with little to no fad, no track time however

                  Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
                  Slip 'N' Slide


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by miatastuff View Post
                    I'd recommend Carroll Smiths Prepare to Win if you don't already have it.. Look at his brake bedding write up and follow it. I think he comes back to it in Engineer to Win as well.
                    I followed G-loc's bedding instructions, I figured they would know best.
                    They have been fine at Roebling and Barber, but AMP seems to over work them.