LS7 Coils [Archive] - MX5 Miata Atlanta Owners Club

RotorNutFD3S

11-29-2008, 11:18 PM

i always thought the point of the Toyota COPs was for the cost effectiveness.
It is. The LS coils are probably better and more powerful.

Any reason to run coil on plug ignition on an otherwise stock '01?
Not really. You can since they're more efficient, but they're definitely an improvement for forced induction. More powerful spark and you can run a larger gap without spark blowout.

redrumracer

11-30-2008, 12:37 AM

It is. The LS coils are probably better and more powerful.

but is the cost effectiveness there after the price of the ls7 coils? those are expensive. i could understand if he is running crazy boost or extremely high comp ratio but if not then whats the purpose? not trying to diss the op, just trying to fig out your reasoning.

RotorNutFD3S

11-30-2008, 12:51 AM

He's already done the Toyota COPs on his NA. Now his NB has a really nice BEGi S4 turbo kit. I'll let him post his own reasoning.

ben91

11-30-2008, 08:14 AM

The newer LSx coils are better than the Toyo COPs and they can be had inexpensively.

I was like the 2nd person to do the Toyo COPs on my NA. The first to do it to a 1.6 I think. And definately the first to use the stock ignitor as a PNP plug. I could go ahead and break the connectors off a stock coil pack and use them for a PNP plug and run another set of Toyo COPs on the new car. It's easier to do than on the old car since I don't have to worry about the tach driver. But I'd rather get ahead of the curve again.

thx712517

11-30-2008, 10:22 AM

If I remember correctly, the SCCA Solo rulebook allows an unlimited ignition setup on stock cars. If there's any kind of gain to be had, it could be worth looking into for me.

ben91

11-30-2008, 10:40 AM

The 01+ ignition system isn't bad really; it's the best of what came with the miata. I'm not sure what you'd notice up top with better coils since the gains might only be 2whp, but what you should see is improved response and better economy.

It's a lot different with forced induction because it actually stresses the stock coils, and the 99-00 coils are the worst of them.

ben91

11-30-2008, 06:21 PM

FM has apparently done this twice now. My favorite is the top picture because (1) restrictions due to VICS intake manifold and (2) it re-uses the original plug wires. The FM mounting bracket is extremely clever. Looks like a couple of small brackets, 2 pieces of allthread and a bunch of nuts.

http://www.flyinmiata.com/projects/installation_photos/img_0789.jpg

http://www.miataturbo.net/forum/attachments/9158d1228062419-349958818111_0_bg.jpg

And some guy in Norway has done it too. Check out his intake manifold
http://www.miataturbo.net/forum/attachments/9157d1228062366-dsc_0146.jpg

thx712517

11-30-2008, 07:46 PM

That engine is in my screen saver file. If I remember correctly it's a stroker kit, the FMII turbo, and all the other tricks. Something like fifteen grand in that motor, if not more.

Doppelgänger

12-16-2008, 02:04 PM

that's my future engine... i just put it on my credit card....

amaff

12-16-2008, 02:50 PM

If I remember correctly, the SCCA Solo rulebook allows an unlimited ignition setup on stock cars. If there's any kind of gain to be had, it could be worth looking into for me.

It's not quite "unlimited"

13.9 ELECTRICAL SYSTEM
A. The make of spark plugs, points, ignition coil and high tension
wires is unrestricted including spark plug wires having an in-line
capacitor.
B. On cars made prior to January 1, 1968, any ignition system
using a standard distributor without modification may be used.
C. Ignition settings may not be adjusted outside factory specifications.
D. No changes are permitted to electronic engine management systems
or their programming.

Note that it says the make of coil can be changed, but it makes no allowance for changing connectors, wiring, or location.

ben91

12-16-2008, 04:17 PM

that's my future engine... i just put it on my credit card....
uhm, what fool thing are you talkin about?

ben91

12-16-2008, 04:26 PM

PS I am so doing this, pretty much like the top picture I posted in #10.

ben91

08-24-2009, 12:15 PM

Finally got off my *** and ordered coils. With any luck, I'll have a working solution by week's end.

RotorNutFD3S

08-24-2009, 12:23 PM

:banana:

Please be sure to document things for us... Stronger spark is on my list of must-haves before I tune, I'm getting blow out at .035" at higher RPM and 10psi, maybe the coil is finally dying, IDK. I'm using Magnecore 8mm and NGK BKR7E-11 plugs, which is a pretty proven combo. I was about to pull the trigger on the Boundary's COP setup, but this has my interest as well. I just need a solution soon.

ben91

08-24-2009, 12:38 PM

Boundry's setup uses some bad *** coils, but I don't think it's packaged correctly. It's great for people who don't mind spending A LOT of money on a PNP solution, but their mistake was how they tied in electronics the way they did (dwell reducer). This ****s in the face of everyone who runs a standalone--takes away their ability to set dwell to their car and to run sequential.

MoD_Scotty

08-24-2009, 01:40 PM

RotorNutFD3S

08-24-2009, 01:52 PM

Have you tried one step colder? I was using 7s on the MoD, and was having similar problems. Switched to one step colder, and bingo, problem solved.

I'm running two steps colder, BKR5E is OEM level. FWIW, using this combination had no problems with 15psi on the 2560R, neither did BKR6Es when I had to substitute them. Which is why I suspect it might be a coil issue.

ben91

08-24-2009, 01:56 PM

I was running .050 at 17psi with the toyo cops, so yeah, sounds like you need hotter spark.

Techsalvager

08-25-2009, 09:42 AM

Sorry to threadjack but I was looking at doing the toyota cop conversion, mainly because I perfer the cop setup vs the coilpack and spark plug wires. Does the the toyota cop setup offer anything else over the stock igintion on a 1.6l than just simplicity?
Anybody report better mileage or smoother engines?
Reading slowly on miataturbo.net still.
Thanks and sorry
Justin

oldgrayfrog

08-25-2009, 02:02 PM

Okay, so will the Boundary COPs run with Megasquirt or not?

ben91

08-25-2009, 04:06 PM

Probably work fine. Just less than ideal.

ben91

08-27-2009, 02:44 PM

I installed the LSx coils for trial, and they work! Car runs fine. Need to make a bracket, button it up, and give em a real test.

RotorNutFD3S

08-27-2009, 02:49 PM

How did you wire them?

ben91

08-27-2009, 03:05 PM

I felt pretty confident they'd work on the stock miata pcm, but since there's no way to know with absolute certainty, I wired up a pigtail harness with crimp-on spades. I simply plugged the spades into the stock harness at the appropriate pins. The LSx coils also have a pcm ground, so I ran that to a valve cover bolt.

I'll give them a little time on the car, and if no faults develop, I'll pot my pigtail into the stock harness with epoxy.

You have a hydra, and you're going to want to run sequential, so you'll also need to run 2 new signal wires from the pcm.

For now I'm off to HD to figure out the mounting bracket. It's a lot more difficult on my car than the ones pictured because I have my CAS on the front of the cam cover and I have the BEGi distribution block on the d/s front corner too. So I'm going to have to be more crafty.

wildfire0310

08-27-2009, 04:56 PM

Where are the photos?

So either way I should be up there this weekend

ben91

08-27-2009, 07:50 PM

Looks stock, no? :lol:
They're the GM D585 coil p/n 190005218, tested at supposedly 3x current compared to the LS1 coil. And the LS1 coils is pretty bad *** in itself (much better than a miata coil). The guys on the LSx forums are going ape **** over it... talking about improved economy 1-2 mpg and 10 ftlbs more torque on otherwise stock motors.

I want to improve the wiring a bit, but here it is. Yeah it runs. Only drove it around the block, but throttle response was good n snappy. I barely borke atmo pressure, so no comment on what happens in boost. The one lonely black wire you see going to the valve cover is for PCM reference ground. It's dark, so I just buttoned it up quick. I'll hide it when I fix up the wiring. I'll also re gap the plugs real wide, like .050 or so.

http://www.mx5atlanta.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=1881&stc=1&d=1251420262

RotorNutFD3S

08-27-2009, 07:52 PM

You have a hydra, and you're going to want to run sequential, so you'll also need to run 2 new signal wires from the pcm.

Have not done much research on running other coils, but why would I need to do all this?

ben91

08-27-2009, 07:57 PM

You're familiar that the miata in stock form is waste spark I'm sure. But to possibly enlighten others, this means that cylinders are on ignition pairs. 1/4 and 2/3 always fire together. However, when 1 is ready to fire, 4 is 180° out, so half the spark is "wasted". This is real hard on plugs and wires, which is why we replace them so often.

The Hydra is capable of at least 4 independent ignition outputs. So if you had 4 coils, you could command each to fire independently. This would mean the coil then gets twice as long to cool down between sparks. It also results in less Vdrop. All good stuff (and worth doing). It could also get you into individual cylinder trims, but I'm not sure you're ready for that road yet.

If you were spinning really high rpm's, then it's also possible that you run out of dwell time before the next spark is required, and by doubling the time between cycles you could then get into your optimum dwell window. Not a problem with our application, but it's something huge to explore on old V8's with single coils--and how they can make huge power gains up top when going to a modern ignition.

RotorNutFD3S

08-27-2009, 08:00 PM

Gotcha. Makes sense now. Just didn't see it that way before. Thanks.

/threadjack

ben91

08-28-2009, 05:42 PM

*** dyno says YES!
About .5:1 leaner in boost. Which means moar powa!

ben91

08-29-2009, 09:19 AM

Well made it to Newnan and back on this as-of-yet untested system. Worked fine.

ben91

08-31-2009, 11:48 AM

misfires @ .055" gap and ~26psi absolute

I am considering running a relay-fired heavy gauge power source to the coils as well as larger grounding, just to see if it improves. I am suspicious that the factory wiring is adequate for the extreme current requirements of these coils compared to original.

RotorNutFD3S

08-31-2009, 11:55 AM

I think I'd be content with a .050" gap.

ben91

08-31-2009, 12:02 PM

Still the power requirements are much greater than stock. I don't think that running some larger power wiring is out of order. It will only take me an hour from start to finish.

Not doing it today, but will do it one day.

RotorNutFD3S

08-31-2009, 12:05 PM

Oh, wasn't questioning that. Definitely give it all the power you can.

ben91

08-31-2009, 12:10 PM

Yeah I know. My feelings are more of why be satisfied at .050 if I can run w/o blow out at .055. Besides if there is significant Vdrop (I suspect there is), there may be more power and economy to pick up.

Google says that GM calls for .060" gap with these coils, but while interesting I don't know if it's meaningful data.

RotorNutFD3S

08-31-2009, 12:16 PM

Would be interesting to know. Glad you're doing the pioneer work on this. :D

Yeah, but is a .060" gap for a 'Vette the same thing as a .060" gap for a Miata running xx psi of boost?

ben91

08-31-2009, 12:35 PM

cylinder pressures are obviously higher in my car when I'm experiencing the misfire than in a stock LSx engine.

the million $$ question is what gaps are people with boosted LSx motors running? well I dunno, having a hard time googling that. but I found a good write up from a guy with the standard LS2 coils (not the HO truck ones that I have) running .040" @ 21 psi over atmo on a turbo 240. He ran new power wiring, even went as far as to run individual power and ground for each coil, which I think is over the top.

ben91

12-03-2009, 05:54 PM

Scoped the coils with the car on teh dyno today. The coils are HOT!
Wasted spark best dwell setting is 4.5ms.

LagunaJames

12-03-2009, 06:10 PM

friend of mine had an STS turbo'd camaro and now has a TT vette, he ran 30-35 on his plugs

Cool Cat Racing

12-04-2009, 12:51 PM

I've got MSD ls2/ls7 coils on the silver car. Reused the JR wires, just swapped the ends. Changed the dwell in he Hydra and was off I mounted Them to the 3 point strut bar. The stock coils had problems much over 15psi, I run stock gap with these with no blowout.

ben91

12-04-2009, 12:56 PM

The MSD LSx version supposedly has the same output as the LS2 truck coils, but also offer the multiple discharge for cruise. They are very nice coils, but even at wholesale are at least twice the cost new to new. I got my coils used for $35 delivered for the set, including the wiring.

I assume you're running sequential spark, so you can run 5.5ms dwell, or maybe even a pinch more to compensate for v drop from the wiring. You have pretty easy access to the + wire to scope it with the coils up there.

Cool Cat Racing

12-04-2009, 11:39 PM

I'm not certain what the dwell is set to. I know it was way off when FM set it up in the Hydra before they sent it. It was set up for OEM coils and the MSD's needed quite a bit of toying with. For nearly all setups the OEM's would probably work just the same.

ben91

12-14-2009, 12:48 PM

LS2 truck coils were on damn near everything non-stock at PRI. All of the big power cars had them. I think I saw one car with the MSD version. I figure if the coils are found on a 1500hp twin turbo Ford GT, they're probably ok for my miata.

Reverend Greg

12-14-2009, 03:52 PM

Ben.Ive skimmed over all three of your coil threads and cant find this...Do they have an iginitor?I want to do the coil thing before the turbo is finished and COPS have become pricey.I do like the clean look of the COPS,tho..yours does look stockish.And short,upgraded wires shouldnt fail that often,per a foto in one of your other threads,MT.net I think. so I guess what im asking is how easy does thing route appear for the 1.8 NA members?
(G)

ben91

12-14-2009, 05:15 PM

Yes, they have their own ignitors. It's no easier or harder than going to any other popular coil, like toyo cops, but these coils are hotter and cheaper. And they're known reliable--the chevy guys are beating on them pretty good and not killing them.

If I had machine shop access and ability, I'd make a bad-*** bracket for them that holds them to the cold side of the valve cover, and get 4 equal sized plug wires. Makes a coolant re-route easy that way.