Questions about boost and ECU stuff

[Dr.Drew]

Hey everyone,
So come the end of January I'm supercharging and probably going with the boost upgrade kit from Moss. I'm also looking into engine management and what would be the best fit.

Moss sells the powercard and ignition timing module but I'm also reading up on the megasquirt systems. Having never built any kinds of circuitry or anything I'm thinking the card+module would be best but will it give me the expandability I want? I'm really timid to try the megasquirt in fear that I will ruin something somehow even though it seems like the better way to go.

Any thoughts on all this?

EDIT: I was also going over the megasquirt manual on their site but is there a PDF or Word version of this anywhere I could print out and REALLY read?

[matredd]

I'll have my powercard/timing card available shortly.

[Dr.Drew]

I'm definitely interested although I'm waiting on FINAID for the rest of my boost related needs, which probably won't be till Late Jan/Early Feb.

[matredd]

No prob. I'm in no hurry. I still have to take them out and replace them with the Xede.

[Dr.Drew]

Is the "timing card" the same as the boost timing unit found here http://www.miatamania.com/Shop/ViewProducts.aspx?PlateIndexID=75028

Does it do the same thing?

[matredd]

Not. I'm not sure if they advertise it seperately. You could probably call Moss and buy it seperately. You can see it in the picture here (http://www.miatamania.com/Shop/ViewProducts.aspx?PlateIndexID=77580). It's part of the boost upgrade kit as well as the mp62 kit I bought.

It's referred to as the timing controller but it's not the same product that comes up when you search "timing controller" on Moss's site. The instructions for it are in the PDF for the mp62 on Moss's site.

They basically do the same thing.

[Dr.Drew]

That's cool, I'm just trying to make sure I have everything figured out before I start.

[nickt93]

"Band aids" are great for low boost applications, but a standalone ECU like a Megasquirt unlocks so much more potential. The price on standalone ECU platforms for the NA has come down in price so much that the gap between a Powercard/Bipes/Rising Rate FPR and a full ECU is pretty narrow. Megasquirt is a great platform and is inexpensive considering the functionality.

It all depends on what you want though. If you are going to run an M45 at < 7 psi with no intercooler, you may be happy with the "band aids" approach.

[Dr.Drew]

Have you built one, I'm still reading through the manual and it's daunting at best.

[ben91]

I will build it, flash the firmware, and load the basemap for $100.
Does not absolve you from reading the manual and understanding how it works, but it eliminates you having to build it.

[Dr.Drew]

Thanks, if I do it I kinda want to build it myself to better understand the system but I would happily toss a few $$$ anyone's way who was there and could help me out.

[ben91]

Right on man. The key to success with any engine management system is understanding how it works.

Why blower?

[Dr.Drew]

This car is still my DD and with my current mechanical and technical skills and knowledge a SC was just a better fit. I love turbos but I know too many people (miata and non miata) who have installed aftermarket turbos and had reliability issues from them to risk it.

[oldgrayfrog]

The card that Matt has is not as flexible as the timing box that Moss sells, then again it's a hundred bucks cheaper. If you are gonna stay at 8 psi or below, it will be fine. Truthfully, with an m45, there aren't a lot of hp to be found past 8psi anyways. Above 8psi the blower starts to fight against itself and it heat the intake charge big time. So if you drop another 500-600 you can build your own intercooler, or drop 1100 on the track dog. Another $600 and you can get a big throttle body. If you throw on the smallest nose pulley, and a crank overlay you can get 11 psi out of the M45. That will require a more sophisticated ECU,
an XEDE costs $1000, the Megasquirt is $700, and the Hydra runs $2000. With all of that you can get 225 hp max. At 8psi
you will run 170-180 all on a bandaid non-intercooled. If you want the set it and forget setup, go with the m45 non-intercooled 6 psi set-up and a basic set of timing cards. Above 6 psi it gets expensive quick, for not huge gains in what you'll feel on the street.

[oldgrayfrog]

All that being said I still think I may go turbo in the near future, if I ever get my ecu to reset. I think I'm going to start collecting turbo bits over a couple months rather that buying a $3000 kit. I know it'll probably be a nightmare, but I've taken the blower as far as I'm willing to go.

[ben91]

A good turbo kit would be no more or no less reliable than a good supercharger kit. An idiot can find ways to blow up a car with either.

Benefits of the turbo are better cruising economy and upgrade potential. Correctly chosen for the application, you can make equivalent or better low end torque than a blower and have better power up top too. You also can add intercooling without idle problems.

Biggest possible pitfall of a crappy turbo system is the potential of a cracked manifold. Overcome by not buying your manifold from ebay.

Biggest possible pitfall of a crappy blower system is belt issues. Overcome by going with a fancy FFS or TDR system. 6 rib is best.

[scandmx5]

this thread, and reading up on miata turbo.net has me interested in a DIY/build my own turbo kit versus paying $3500+ for a Voodoo 2 kit that will only make 180ish hp to the wheels

[scandmx5]

The card that Matt has is not as flexible as the timing box that Moss sells, then again it's a hundred bucks cheaper. If you are gonna stay at 8 psi or below, it will be fine. Truthfully, with an m45, there aren't a lot of hp to be found past 8psi anyways. Above 8psi the blower starts to fight against itself and it heat the intake charge big time. So if you drop another 500-600 you can build your own intercooler, or drop 1100 on the track dog. Another $600 and you can get a big throttle body. If you throw on the smallest nose pulley, and a crank overlay you can get 11 psi out of the M45. That will require a more sophisticated ECU,
an XEDE costs $1000, the Megasquirt is $700, and the Hydra runs $2000. With all of that you can get 225 hp max. At 8psi
you will run 170-180 all on a bandaid non-intercooled. If you want the set it and forget setup, go with the m45 non-intercooled 6 psi set-up and a basic set of timing cards. Above 6 psi it gets expensive quick, for not huge gains in what you'll feel on the street.

not ****ting on your post at atll, but also the Zoom3 PnP by BEGI
they made 212rwhp on Stephanie's miata using stock internals and stock injectors on a 99!

[ben91]

Steph's car is an NB2 not a 99, and has a T25 turbo not a M45 blower. Other than that, and the fact that taking NB2 injectors over 190 whp seems dubious, carry on. OGF's point of how painful it is to upgrade the M45 is right on.

[scandmx5]

i love how you constantly have to be a smartass to anyone and everyone with your know it all googling attitude, if you'd like ill be glad to let you hop on my miataturbo.net account and read the PM where she specifically told me it was on a 99. Also i've seen countless threads all over the Miata community where NB2 injectors were pushed up to being able to handle 220hp max. so how about them apples?

[Dr.Drew]

Q for OldGrayFrog

So if I just went with the basic boost upgrade kit from moss would the duel cards be sufficient? I'm not planning on pushing more than 8lbs but I do plan on intercooling in the near future. Is there a chart anywhere that shows the pulley upgrades vs the expected boost?

I don't really need or expect anything over 180-200hp at this point.

Ben: I like the idea of the ability to remove a SC at a moments notice as well. Hopefully in the next couple of years I'll pick up another NA as a turbo project but being new to boost this is just the better fit.

[matredd]

The card that Matt has is not as flexible as the timing box that Moss sells, then again it's a hundred bucks cheaper. If you are gonna stay at 8 psi or below, it will be fine. Truthfully, with an m45, there aren't a lot of hp to be found past 8psi anyways. Above 8psi the blower starts to fight against itself and it heat the intake charge big time. So if you drop another 500-600 you can build your own intercooler, or drop 1100 on the track dog. Another $600 and you can get a big throttle body. If you throw on the smallest nose pulley, and a crank overlay you can get 11 psi out of the M45. That will require a more sophisticated ECU,
an XEDE costs $1000, the Megasquirt is $700, and the Hydra runs $2000. With all of that you can get 225 hp max. At 8psi
you will run 170-180 all on a bandaid non-intercooled. If you want the set it and forget setup, go with the m45 non-intercooled 6 psi set-up and a basic set of timing cards. Above 6 psi it gets expensive quick, for not huge gains in what you'll feel on the street.
I really don't know the differences between Moss's other timing box. Track dog (http://trackdogracing.com/website/dyno_run.htm) is making 216hp at the wheels with the timing card and powercard I am currently using. They're capable and easy to tune just not as capable as something like a megasquirt. Long term, I'd go with something else but I will be getting rid of them in the near future and I'm sure it will be cheaper than any other engine management.

[ben91]

i love how you constantly have to be a smartass to anyone and everyone with your know it all googling attitude, if you'd like ill be glad to let you hop on my miataturbo.net account and read the PM where she specifically told me it was on a 99. Also i've seen countless threads all over the Miata community where NB2 injectors were pushed up to being able to handle 220hp max. so how about them apples?Steph drives an 02 man. Maybe they had a customer's 99 or something, doesn't matter though.

You can calculate HP as a function of fuel; it's simple physics. NB2 injectors can not support 220hp at any reasonable amount of fuel pressure.
You can do the math yourself if you want. NB2 injectors @ 55psi will flow about 29 lbs/hr. Let's say they run at 85% DC (max should be 80% but let's give you every chance) and our BSFC is only .55 (lean for a turbo motor)
(29 x .85) / .55 = 45 hp per injector x 4 injectors = 180 hp.

The calculations are only approximations of real world, however 180 is a far cry from 220. And that's why you see people switching to the 320cc supra injectors for 200 hp applications.

The only way to get that kind of power out of those little injectors in an NB would be to install a return fuel system and jack the fuel pressure up real high,which means you need to install an aux FPR and aftermarket fuel pump.This would be retarded to do with a piggy back, in terms of both cost and complexity.

<edit> I just did the math, and you'd need about 115 psi of differential fuel pressure at full boost and redline to get 220hp out of stock NB2 injectors. I won't say it can't happen, but it probably won't.

Fuel flow at 115 psi = sq rt (115/43.5) x 26 = 42
(42 x .8) / .6 = 56 x 4 = 224

[scandmx5]

so... Supra injectors and Xede is the best route for a boosted 200hp aimed NB2??

[ben91]

I think the xede is a great choice for that power level--assuming you're looking for the easiest way to put in decent management that easily passes obdII tests.
The supra injectors are ok. I prefer RX8 injectors though, since you won't have any trouble idling them with an xede. If you're running a powercard, then yes go with supra injectors.

[scandmx5]

Xede is expensive as hell, not to mention Bell doesn't even include management with their kits like FM does...
so running a piggyback such as zoom3 or voodoo box with larger injectors won't be as great of an option?
and YES emissions passing is of importance to me
i don't wanna register mine in shelby tennessee or elsewhere :lol:

[ben91]

If you want to save a lot of coin (but give up a lot of support), you can go with an emanage ultimate or aem fic. Both are piggies. Both aren't well documented or supported by end users or manufacturers. The adaptronic is not going to pass emissions, despite claims by the vendor. There's only 1 guy with an NB2 who's got his set up 100% CEL free, and he did all his own wiring, built his own breakout circuitry, and had o2 simulators programmed. He said that he could not get a simple 555 timer based simulator to satisfy the stock PCM to not throw an o2 control MIL. I am hoping that my 99 PCM is dumber than the NB2's and I don't have this problem.

You can also try wiring up a parallel MS like mine. That will be the least expensive, the most powerful, and the most work. Don't know if it will satisfy the stock PCM to not throw the o2 code or not in your car though.

[scandmx5]

this sh!t is all so confusing to me
thus i joined miataturbo

[oldgrayfrog]

Well Ben is right when he said that I was trying to point out what a PITA upgrades to a SC are. That said, The supra injectors with an XEDE, a ZOOM 3 or even the power card will get you there. I had the normal injectors running very lean at 8 psi, so I switched to Supra injectors, they're cheap and easy to find. If you have a timing box, it allows you to set the timing 15 degrees either way, while driving, so if you detect knock or ping you can pull timing right then in the car. I don't know if the card allows that much flex, I think its onlt plus/minus 3-5 degrees. Matt correct me if I'm wrong. The Zoom3 is designed to get you to 200whp. It's probably a good match as well. The power card is about the same money but because there are lots of them availible for sale used, you probably can get them cheaper. When I sell off my supercharger, I'll include all that stuff too,until then I'm sure Matt can sell you his cheap. As far as Ben's offer to set somebody up a PNP for a $100, that's the best deal out here for somebody who is driving a 90-95. You will get far more tunability, Ben can street tune it for you to get it started, it will have growth potential should you choose to go beyond 180 whp. It will not however pass emissions for the 96-up crowd, which means annual removal, and possibly like me riding around for weeks hoping my stock ecu will get ready to test. PITA which is why I'll probably get rid of it and replace it with an XEDE or some other piggy, maybe the Adaptronic, I've read good things about that as well.

[oldgrayfrog]

Wow, while I was typing I read Ben's post about the Adaptronic, oh sheet. Well Ben, how much to set up the MS PNP to run parrallel?

[oldgrayfrog]

Side Note: Miata Mike blew a piston using the emanage ultimate, which is why he is building the MSPNP. He is a bold but not inexperienced tuner. He has access to tuners and to Dyno's and he blew a piston. Going beyond 10 psi is not for the weak of heart.

[ben91]

I thought he was running AEM's FIC. I don't know that to be true though.
I think he will be successful with the MS2, that however assumes that he starts reading the manual! :stick:

The adaptronic hardware shows potential, however it lacks in clean execution. If you are capable of building your own harness and break out electronics, it will run MIL-free, as Matt Yates has accomplished. However his set up, as I pointed out, is of advanced difficulty--and realistically getting a computerized o2 simulator programmed is next to impossible. I asked Matt if he could get his chip programmer at work to burn a few more, and he said he could not. However, he is more than willing to share the specs.

I am not inclined to offer services to build a OBD compliant MS at this time. I have a few reasons for doing so. First, I don't know if it will ultimately be successful, though I believe that it will be. I am not far. I had one hiccup on the 500 mile trip down to Orlando. It ran flawlessly the 500 mile trip back.
Secondly, I'm running a non-OEM trigger wheel in parallel with the factory sensors. There are theoretical ways to get around this that should work, but I have not tested them.
Thirdly, it's a good bit of work, and would have to come with a good bit of tech support. I think if I charged enough to even remotely almost make it worth my time, it might not be reasonable to the end user. I actually find some enjoyment in building up the MS itself, but I find building the requisite harness tedious and dull. Unfortunately the harness build takes significantly longer than the MS build. If I owned the correct pin crimper, it would build out faster. Maybe that's something to look in to.
Lastly, even if I do everything to the best of my abilities, but the end user has a perfectly running car but with a MIL issue, I don't know how to reach a happy resolution.

That aside, I have been fully open-book and transparent on my setup, and my build thread contains all documentation required for anyone else to copy and try it for themselves.

[ben91]

OGF, why specifically does your car not pass emissions right now?

[nickt93]

One other suggestion - this is the best $23.07 you can invest if you are interested in forced induction:

http://www.amazon.com/Maximum-Boost-Turbocharger-Engineering-Performance/dp/0837601606/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1261006071&sr=8-1

This will answer a lot of your questions and help you plan your setup. It's an easy read - Corky does a great job explaining the principles of forced induction.

[oldgrayfrog]

I am getting that book from my "Secret Santa". The car is running great, no CELs, every time I go in to the testing facility the car says the ecu is not ready. I have driven 300 miles since I re-installed te stock ecu. I have driven about 150 miles on the highway of which half was at a steady 55-60 mph, and the rest at speed up to 75 mph then back off to 65. The miles in stop and go I drove some as a maniac like I stole the car, lots of WOT, and then the rest like your grandma...still not ready. I'd happily pay someone $100 to go drive the car and get it to pass legitamitely. I have accepted the fact that there is a ticket in my future, the registration was up at the end of November. I am frustrated to say the least.

[ben91]

OGF, come and see me. I have a good obd scanner. Keep your $100, but upon successful pass, you can buy us lunch. If there is nothing mechanically wrong with the car, it will pass.

[oldgrayfrog]

I'll definitely take you up on that Ben, but I think my wife has me booked out the next couple of weekends. If I don't get this bitc* to pass before New Years I'll come up your way. BTW did you ever get the loaner Hard Top you needed? Mine wouldn't match, but if you are goin on a long road trip you are welcome to borrow it.

[ben91]

You can come tomorrow. It only gets harder and colder over the next few weeks, not to mention increases your chance to get ticket$. If you have no MIL pending or stored, I will be as bold as guarantee the pass.

Thanks, I got a HT from Mr Luney already. In fact, I am tentatively scheduled to return it tomorrow.

[miatamike]

The other ecu you can look into is the AEM FIC i have one in my car now and its great it has an o2 clamp, maf clamp, ignition tables and fuel tables and its easy to install seeing how you have a NA miata you can go to boomslang and buy the pre-made harness for it so it would be all plug and play. I made 262whp and 260wtq on 15psi with a EVOIII 16g on a built bottom end only.