Stand-Alone's... What setup and why?

[Jack-MX5ATLanta.com]

Let's have a civil discussion about what stand-alones work well and for what? The pro's, con's, and all that good stuff. No Bashing!

[Doppelgänger]

I have a Hydra. Yeah, it was in the car when I got it, but even when I was building up a turbo kit for my 99, I wanted a Hydra because of the capabilities that it can do everything and is very well designed. It does not require constant tweaking either and it has a very good autotune feature. I have yet to really sit down and go through every little aspect of what the Hydra can do...which is about everything...so for the moment, I just have it tuned and running, though i'll be exploring more stuff the next time I go for tuning (3"exhaust w00t)
A big plus to the Hydra is the ability to control VVT, as so far there is no aftermarket ECU that can.

[Jack-MX5ATLanta.com]

What's the interface like? I also heard the Hydra has the option for some sort of anti-lag fuel dump setup. It would probably eat up turbo's quite a bit quicker but would be pretty cool to mess with.

[simontibbett]

Megasquirt, I can't really say which is better or worse, as I have only used MS on a Miata. It is very easy to use, installation was literally plug and play, seriously. It even started right up. The program is easy to use, lots of options and features. Plus for the price it's hard to beat.

[Doppelgänger]

What's the interface like? I also heard the Hydra has the option for some sort of anti-lag fuel dump setup. It would probably eat up turbo's quite a bit quicker but would be pretty cool to mess with.

I have not really looked at the screen layout on something like a MS, but what I have glanced at, it's pretty similar. There are tons of various tables and values to adjust anything. It's all pretty easy to find and change, but since I don't know how the value scale work, I generally don't mess with anything. It does have a anti-lag/flat shift setting, but i'll stay from using such fun toys on an expensive turbo :lol:
Real-yime monitoring/logging is very easy to use and read too, although the readout doesn't have the "gauge screen" that you can get with the MS, but data is data when you're rading it.

[Jack-MX5ATLanta.com]

Mike, just occurred to me, how do you go about emissions with a stand alone on an OBDII car?

Was yours one with a plug and play harness or did you have to solder it in Simon?

[simontibbett]

Yeah it's the plug and play, no soldering, literally unplug the stock ECU, plug this in, run a small line, remove a fuse, that's about it. Took ten minutes tops to get the car up and running.

[Doppelgänger]

Mike, just occurred to me, how do you go about emissions with a stand alone on an OBDII car?

Was yours one with a plug and play harness or did you have to solder it in Simon?

Oh uuuuh... what are emissions tests? :biggrin:
I'm registered outside metro-atlanta. But no, it does not return OBDII codes...no emissions legal. The Hydra is also plug and play.

[RotorNutFD3S]

I have a Link. It's what came with the car. It's good for what it does, hasn't caused me any issues, relatively easy to tune yourself, and can autotune with or without a WBo2. Now they can be had relatively cheaply and still work really well. Support is hit and miss though, so be ready to learn.

On the flipside, I've been wanting to upgrade/update my EMS for a while. People have found power gains over the Link by going with a Hydra, AEM EMS, or MegaSquirt. I really like the features of the Hydra, but cannot justify the cost. I've been watching the AEM EMS v.1 prices bottom out. Right now I can get one new for $850ish/shipped, which is only a little more than a MSPNP, and while the MS is pretty widely supported, AEM is definitely fully supported almost everywhere, especially with dyno tuning. I'll make a decision at some point after the car is running again.

[N3v]

I'm at the far end of the extreme, I built my own megasquirt. cost me 210 bucks. As far as I know, it can do all the stuff a hydra can. At least, all the stuff a hydra can do that a miata can actually use. Again though, I've never even seen a hydra, just read about them, but mine is easy to tune (I thought they were tough or I was bad at it until I recently helped someone tune a megasquirt that wasn't on an ITB car, turns out regular cars are MUCH easier to tune, haha) For my setup, I stripped some insulation away on the stock harness on the wires I needed, and soldered my wires onto them so the stock harness is relatively intact; all I would have to do is cut my harness off. A popular thing to do is to build a wiring harness that goes from the megasquirt's DB37 to a plug similar to a stock ecu's plug, and plug that into your stock harness. I made one of those plugs, but it wasn't reliable for me, pins kept breaking off of it and stuff.

It has capabilities to handle spark advancement, autotuning, flat shifting, electronic boost control, launch control, nitrous management, water injection, rev limiter, you name it. And best of all, once you build one, you learn a LOT about efi, and you can tweak the original layout to work with pretty much any car! I'm helping a friend build one for his 240sx at the moment. I'd really love to see doppelganger's hydra and it's software, but you can't beat it for 210!

It took me about a month to build my megasquirt in my spare time, and a few hours here and there to tweak it. For example, on 93-95's you can wire it to the tachometer wire and it will fire right up, but on 96-97 cars you have to build a little circuit inside the megasquirt, called a 'mod' in the 'mod area' which is basically a blank spot on the chip where you can add whatever you want. You have to do a similar mod for launch control. So, I had to remove my megasquirt a couple of times to tweak a thing or two to get it just right.

Also, as a side note, one thing I do know about the hydra is that it has the megasquirt beat on 2001+ cars. I don't think megasquirts can handle the variable valve timing stuff. Perhaps a megasquirt can be modded to deal with it, but i know there's no pnp, and I've never really looked into it.

As for support, as far as I'm concerned, you've got all the support you'll ever need as long as you're patient enough to search on miataturbo, and post when you're stumped.

[JDM88]

How hard was it to build your mega squirt? Much prior electrical experience needed?

[N3v]

you don't really need electrical experience per se, as long as you know how to use a soldering iron you should be ok. You don't have to do any calculations or any design yourself, its pretty much all spelled out in the guide: solder resistor R7 into slot R7, capacitor C22 into the spot labeled C22 on the diagram, etc.

[gearbox]

the MS you can order premade if you dont want to build one.

[redrumracer]

As for support, as far as I'm concerned, you've got all the support you'll ever need as long as you're patient enough to search on miataturbo, and post when you're stumped.

except for the part where they flame you and tell you to read all the post 3 times ;) :D

[N3v]

yeah you just have to tough through that part :P hell, some people told me to gtfo and wanted me banned cause i was doing an NA build

[redrumracer]

yeah you just have to tough through that part :P hell, some people told me to gtfo and wanted me banned cause i was doing an NA build

thats believable, esp on a TURBO forum lol

[Jack-MX5ATLanta.com]

I think it's a good forum if you know how to deal with those kind of people. It's certainly more interesting than miata.net. But back on topic....

I do fancy the idea of building my own megasquirt for that price. As a sort of side project. My only would be messing it up and end up wasting a couple hundred bills.

[ben91]

A big plus to the Hydra is the ability to control VVT, as so far there is no aftermarket ECU that can.It's not the only standalone with the abillity, it's just the most widely supported.

FWIW, I'm pretty sure I can run VVT off a MS/MSPNP. I have a pretty solid theory on how to do it, which I discussed with DIY Autotune and they think it should work. Just haven't done it yet as I don't have a VVT head in the car.

[Doppelgänger]

What others absolutly support VVT?
Yeah, i'm sure a MoTec can... but that's a little above the ECUs were talking about.

[N3v]

I think it's a good forum if you know how to deal with those kind of people. It's certainly more interesting than miata.net. But back on topic....

I do fancy the idea of building my own megasquirt for that price. As a sort of side project. My only would be messing it up and end up wasting a couple hundred bills.

thats what i kinda thought going into it, but its really hard to mess it up badly enough where its not salvagable. Worst case scenario you'll solder a thing or two into the wrong spot and have to carefully de-solder them, and possibly get new components if you damaged them while removing them. if this is the case though, DIYautotune is the best because of that. you can seriously shoot them an email and say 'yeah you know this one bag that had resistors r7,14,21,and 28 in it? yeeah i need a new one' and they'll send you one for pretty much pennies. the only 'expensive' things you can break are the main processor ($16 iirc, or if you end up needing a a whole new main board, those are like $22)

I would highly recommend buying a 'stimulator.' a stimulator is a tool that plugs into the megasquirt's data plug and simulates the signals that a car would give/recieve. with that tool, you can check several times during the build that you're on the right track. for example, after you install the first 15 or so components, you should be able to hook your megasquirt up to a computer, send it some basic signals via serial port, and it will respond in a certain way. if it does, then you know you're good so far. after you install some more components, you can plug in the stim, and it should light up certain lights on the stim, and if they do then you're good, but if not you at least know which set of components is causing the problem, and usually just backtracking over the instructions will show you where you went wrong.

[Jack-MX5ATLanta.com]

That's a really good idea. But I shouldn't be teasing myself with this. I'm stuck with a metro Atlanta registration and emissions. And I don't think they've got OBDII down. Unless I just whip it out for emissions time.... hmmm

[ben91]

What others absolutly support VVT?
Yeah, i'm sure a MoTec can... but that's a little above the ECUs were talking about.
Anything with a spare programmable 2D or 3D PWM output...
Hint: Boost control is typically accomplished by PWM.

[ben91]

That's a really good idea. But I shouldn't be teasing myself with this. I'm stuck with a metro Atlanta registration and emissions. And I don't think they've got OBDII down. Unless I just whip it out for emissions time.... hmmm
What year is your car?

[Jack-MX5ATLanta.com]

1996.

[ben91]

Piggy's make short work of OBDII issues. My 99 runs an Xede parallel with stock PCM. Returns OBD codes and passes emissions. Essentially PNP install.

Xede does not have a huge following (probably due to its comparative high cost), but the more I work with it, the more capable I realize it is. Someone with pretty much the same set up as me just put down 275whp uncorrected at nominal boost, 12 psi I think.

[N3v]

eep, sucks, i'm in the same boat with my 97. However, you can install the MS in parallel with your stock ecu, which basically means you keep the stock ecu in place with all the wires going to it that it wants, then split off the wires to go to the MS too. So, the ms gets the signals it wants, and so does the stock ecu. then you cut the ignition and fuel wires from the stock ecu. So, the stock ecu still thinks everything is dandy, but the megasquirt is effectively controlling all of the performance aspects of the car. this is not a piggyback, its running two ecu's at the same time. its the same performance-wise as a standalone.

with that setup you can probably pass emissions still, but I admit I've never done it, as ITB's requires removal of my EGR and MAF. If my stock ecu was hooked up, it would throw god knows how many codes for that.

[Jack-MX5ATLanta.com]

Ben does that piggyback take control of the lower rpm band (closed loop?) or is it just the top end like most others?

I quite like the idea of running parallel. Heck maybe even some sort of elaborate switch/plug system to turn off/remove quickly could work.

[LagunaRoadster]

I have a hydra, but have yet to install it. 2nd week in february it's going in along with an FMII kit. I'll let you know how it goes.

[RotorNutFD3S]

Jack, just run parallel. No need for any elaborate switch, etc. It doesn't need to come off for emissions as long as you have everything wired up correctly so it's not throwing a CEL.

[redrumracer]

how good is the emanage?

[Doppelgänger]

Anything with a spare programmable 2D or 3D PWM output...
Hint: Boost control is typically accomplished by PWM.


oh yay..a guessing game :rolleyes:

[ben91]

oh yay..a guessing game :rolleyes::facepalm:
Hardly. Indeed I gave you the solution, not the question.

[Doppelgänger]

You could have saved 3 useless posts if you would have just answered the damn question.

[RotorNutFD3S]

I know someone who just went and bought a MSPNP today (and it wasn't me)... :whistle:

[Jack-MX5ATLanta.com]

That's awesome mate! I can't wait till spring break time. I'm gonna be doing some serious modifications at that point.

[RotorNutFD3S]

Well it wasn't me. Should have said that, oops. Edited the post. :D

[N3v]

i set up a pnp for someone the other day. I'd never seen one before, they're great.

[RotorNutFD3S]

Yeah, I gotta go home and install MegaTune on my laptop so that I can help him set it up at the tech day tomorrow.

[wildfire0310]

was it !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[RotorNutFD3S]

:whistle:

[wonton]

was it !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

maybe!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Doppelgänger]

OMG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!

[wonton]

:banana: :lol:

[N3v]

i'll bring my laptop with megatune as well

[wonton]

when installing does the pnp have to be full stand alone or can i run in parallel, from what was said on here if i run full stand alone i wont be able to pass emission!

[RotorNutFD3S]

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[N3v]

if you want to run a parallel, it will be complicated to set a pnp up like that. I'd just build one in that case.

[wonton]

i have the PNP unit, and the IAT sensor < that sensor replaces the MAF right?

[N3v]

sort of. you can't pass emissions without a maf though. do you even need to pass emissions in georgia?

[wonton]

in my county yeah!

[N3v]

well you're planning on turboing right? lots of guys just swap out their pnp for their stock ecu, set their turbo's wastegate fully open, limp it to inspection, pass, go home and switch it back out. not that tough once a year

[wonton]

yeah thats not to bad, i have seen people that delete there MAF and still pass emission! but ill have to research it more, it will be a while before i get my car boosted due to funds. in the mean time i can tune with no MAF and when i get ready to do my emissions i can put the MAF back in and retune with it just for inspections!

[N3v]

heh, i just registered my car out in the boonies and gave up all hope of ever passing emissions again, haha

[wonton]

true true!

[ben91]

You could have saved 3 useless posts if you would have just answered the damn question.
Not being coy with you boss.
The answer to the question is: any PCM with 1 extra PWM output can run VICS. 2D will work, but 3D is better. The hydra is 3D.

There's also 2 different fellas in Europe (totally unrelated and seperate projects) that have built their own homegrown standalone VVT controllers.

[ben91]

true true!I had assumed you did. DIY is right up the road from me, if you want me to pick it up from them for you we can work that out.

I've also got MT loaded on my laptop, and have installed a half dozen of the PNP units.

[ben91]

This unit looks bad *** ADAPTRONIC (http://www.adaptronic.com.au/products-e420c.php#Models)
Group buy at MT.net (http://www.miataturbo.net/forum/t30664-5/). There is some confusion in the thread that required clarification, but overall it looks like a winner.

And yes Dopple, it can run VVT through any of its 3 programmable PWM outputs, 2D 3D or 4D. :eek:
This thing should really give Hyrda a run for their money.

[Jack-MX5ATLanta.com]

Ben does that piggyback take control of the lower rpm band (closed loop?) or is it just the top end like most others?


Bringing this back from the dead. That's the main question I have now, I assume the same applies to the s-afc.

[ben91]

If you are talking about the Xede, it has full time control of spark and fuel.

It is a fine unit, I don't have any real problems with it. Other than it likes to set of a P0300 unknown cyl misfire code when I have it get aggressive with timing. You just reset the code and bring the timing closer to stock at emissions time. I passed without issue.

[Jack-MX5ATLanta.com]

Any thoughts on the AEM FIC piggyback?

Do you guys run widebands? How necessary are they to get a real good tune?

[Matt Cramer]

You'll need a wideband installed to tune the motor, period. Whether it's permanently installed or a temporary one the dyno shop keeps around is a different question.