New fastback top coming to the market!

[Doppelgänger]

I figured I let you guys in on a little secret. I was recently contected by someone who is designing and building a fastback top that will hopefully one-up Autokenexion's current offering. I don't know what details I am not to giveaway, but I will quite what is currently on the website they're setting up to display it soon.
http://www.imagelinkers.com/out.php/i67150_fastbackconcept.jpg

http://www.warhorseperformance.com/


Warhorse Performance Miata hatchback hard top
100% made in the USA by fiberglass professionals with 30+ years experience.
COMING SPRING 2011

The picture above is an accurate artistic rendering. The first prototype is nearly finished and pictures will be coming soon.

The first version will be a fiberglass top for the NB Miata (NA will follow shortly, and then NC) complete with lexan windows, window seals and attaching hardware. We will have 1 or 2 available removeable ducktail spoiler designs and the top will be designed for mounting an APR or similar competition wing. The top is designed to work with rear decklid completely removed and will function as a true hatchback using the trunk release mechanism.

Pricing will depend on level of trim and options. Initial estimates put an unpainted (black or grey gel coat) but complete ready to bolt on and go OEM quality top complete with weather ready lexan and door window seals, mounting hardware and hatch hinges for less then the price of an OEM top. Bare fiberglass tops will also be available for the DIY racer, as well as any configuration in between. We hope to be ready to ship the first "bare" tops by the end of March 2011 and complete tops in April or May. Wet and/or Dry carbon version are also in the works.

NA, NB and NC tops should all be very similar, possibly with minor changes to the shapes of the side windows to better compliment the different body styles. We will be looking for a NC to borrow for approximately a month.

This hatchback top is only the beginning for us, more will follow.



I'm hoping to help get the word out there for everyone to see and for them to get some feedback on. Who knows, we might even see Hippo rocking one of these as well. Remember that the picture is just a rendering and that any completes version will likely look a little different. The BIG PLUS to this that I see is the functional hatch...not having to remove the rear section to access the trunk like the Autokenexion piece. I have seen prototype pictures of this as well....so don't think that it's jsut an idea in someones head, thay're actually doing this (I have been asked not to post up any of these pictures). I have a few opinions on parts of the design but I'll refrain from posting that because I want to see if anyone else is thinking what I am thinking.

[nickt93]

I like it - looks a whole lot like the Autokonexion top, but sounds like a better design perhaps. The ducktail spoiler is cool.

For me the coolest thing about the fastback tops is that it is something different - helps to set a car apart in the vast sea of Miatas out there. I don't think it necessarily looks better than a hardtop car, just different. For me to ever be interested, the price point would have to come down to a point where it was a little more expensive than a normal OEM hardtop.

I'd also be a bit hesitant to buy from a company without a known reputation (although it sounds like the folks at Warhorse have quite a bit of experience). We've all read what happened to the folks that took a chance on Chaser Aero.

Still, new and innovate products in the Miata community are always welcome! Will be interesting to see a final production version (on your car?).

[RotorNutFD3S]

Don't like the side window, doesn't flow with the lines, but as stated, may be different in the final version.

Price point - "for less then the price of an OEM top" - Are we talking OEM from Mazda at around $2200 or used market around $1000? That'll make a big difference.

[Beastinthebushes]

I agree about the window. Its not bad looking, but looks very similar to the autokenexion one. If it doesn't cost the price of an NA, I would definitely be very interested. I'll be looking forward to its progress for sure.

[theothersawyer]

I also think the window isn't quite right. But other than that I like it!

[Dr.Drew]

I really liked it at first glance but the more I look the less I like. I think it could be because it's a rendering and the color doesn't quite match which makes it look like a hat and not part of the car.

But I'm sure when I see one in person I'll want one bad enough to consider selling an internal organ.

[Bernie]

I agree with the side window not looking quite "right". My untrained in design eye kinda feels like the window should chase the body line a bit more... sorta like this:

http://www.sbcruisers.com/previousrides/images/1982_280zx1.jpg

I'd love to see how they plan on treating the back window. The current offering on the market looks like something cobbled together in a garage on a bet to make a top in 24 hours or less.

Also, I'm not the biggest fan of Lexan, but if done thick enough so it doesn't look cheap, then I'd be okay with it.

[Doppelgänger]

Here, I moved the window's leading edge forward, contoured it to the body and tapered the rear part of it..... and for Drew, I darkened it up al-la an Infiniti ad to show more of a silhouette :lol:

http://www.imagelinkers.com/out.php/i67153_fastbackconceptver2shill.jpg

(without the excessive darkening)


http://www.imagelinkers.com/out.php/i67152_fastbackconceptver2.jpg

[Bernie]

Yes, much more interested.

[JennB]

I think Pepper needs one.

[caseyfoster]

Im bored, send me that side picture of your car mike and ill ps it on there perfectly.

[scandmx5]

Im bored, send me that side picture of your car mike and ill ps it on there perfectly.
this^^^^

it looks to me like a jag, some aston, part hell idk

[RotorNutFD3S]

I do like how the roof continues to slope up and arch with the windshield line and I finally figured out what the whole setup reminded me of:

http://image.hotrod.com/f/8958024/170large+1997_dodge_viper_gts_coupe+side_view.jpg

Although the GTS has a more pronounced arch and doesn't have the rear quarter window.

[Doppelgänger]

Im bored, send me that side picture of your car mike and ill ps it on there perfectly.

Click on my cardomain link in my sig..you'll find the larger version of that original picture on there.

I see the Jag in there...a lot.



I added a trim piece between the windows (ok, I darkened it up to illustrate a trim piece) and tinted the window.....

http://www.imagelinkers.com/out.php/i67154_fastbackconceptver2t.jpg

[nickt93]

On a side note - somebody needs to talk to Autokonexion about their marketing. All of the cars on their site look terrible - they are dusty works in progress that don't make their products look appealing at all. If the Warhorse guys are even halfway adept at Marketing they will do a lot better than Autokonexion!

[scandmx5]

the more i look at it, it looks really badass. especially on your car mike

[miata5620]

I think price and fit and finish will be the big things. Is it going to just bolt on with no body work or is it going to need to go to the body shop so it fits half way well.

[RotorNutFD3S]

Someone on miataturbo did a photoshop of how they like it (notice the tail is a little more subtle):

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5244/5278418734_8de0de937b_o.jpg

[metalman]

The area right behind the driver window, narrow at bottom, wider at top, is nasty.

[Dr.Drew]

I definitely like the last one better, the less pronounced tail spoiler makes it for me. Also, in that pic there is a bit more detail with the back window wrapping around to the side some. That looks fantastic.

[scandmx5]

sadly i have to agree with Kurt on that window part

i wonder if this is going to be like a Chaser Aero part :lol:

[Doppelgänger]

Well, there is a little difference between a rendering and taking the back half of a BMW and chopping it onto the back of a Miata :lol:

[scandmx5]

i still like the larger wing-lip :lol:

[Sawyer]

Yeah I like the big ducktail too.

[Doppelgänger]

More info/picas from Jes...the guy doing this.

I suppose I should introduce myself and give you guys some info but first I'd like to give a big thanks to doppelganger for letting me use his photo and giving me feedback on the project.
I started kicking this idea back in may 2007 when emilio from 949 started talking about doing a fastback on miata.net. I was incredibly disappointed when he said he was just too busy to make it happen, so I started a 3d model and made some photoshops and looking in to what it would take to make it happen and get something going "on the side". When the AK top first came out I had mixed feelings. I wanted one, but was also a bit disappointed that they beat me to it and with the design. Its cool, but not how I'd do it, and it was different enough from what I was working on that I decided to keep at it. If you think this is a copy of the AK top you are dead wrong and it baffles me how anyone could look at this and think that. No retrospect to AK... I hope to get one of their NB widebody kits and their "adore" NA is beautifully clean.
Anyway My daily grind is being office manager, right hand man, jack-of-all-trades for a Shelby mustang/cobra parts and resto business that has been around for 32 years.
www.shelbyparts.com
I decided to talk to the guys that make our fiberglass about getting help to do this top, and we decided together that it made the most sense to have them build the buck, molds and handle all of the production fglass work. These are the ONLY guys who's fiberglass we will use or sell for the last 25 years. All the other brands dont even come close. The guy who started the fiberglass company 37 years ago was a tool and die maker before he went off on his own and although he still works there (he built the hatchback buck, mold and is finishing up the prototype) his son is taking over the company after working there his whole life.
Here is some of the stuff they produce for us:
http://www.period13cobras.com/jes/warhorse/67hood1.jpg
http://www.period13cobras.com/jes/warhorse/buckets1.jpg
http://www.period13cobras.com/jes/warhorse/nose1.jpg
http://www.period13cobras.com/jes/warhorse/hood1.jpg
They also took a concept that was brought to them and did this car. Regardless of the proportions they were given to work with or how appropriate a 2007 mustang made to look like a 69 shelby is, they got the job done. They are also doing a much much better looking 05+ mustang that looks like a 69 mach 1 for the same customers.
http://www.period13cobras.com/jes/warhorse/Image_2139_3.jpg
http://www.period13cobras.com/jes/warhorse/Image_2178_3.jpg
http://www.period13cobras.com/jes/warhorse/Image_2157_2.jpg
They also did the 5ft tall fiberglass cobra for us standing next to carroll shelbys personal convertible we resorted a few years ago. Its a 13 pc mold. That takes experience.
http://www.period13cobras.com/jes/warhorse/shelbys69vert40.jpg
Yes, this project is a departure for them, but they are more then capable of producing a quality part.

Anyway, back to the main topic here, the top.
To address some concerns. The mold and prototype outer shell are done, but yes, we should be able to change the window and make the b-pillar more narrow, or also possibly extend and bond the lexan to the b-pillar to make it an invisible b-pillar design. I will try to get a better image of the current window shape. What you are not seeing is the slope of the top as it tapers back. The top is much wider at its base then the AK in back... about the middle of the orange lens in the tail lights. But it is also much more contoured and sloped then say a 240z.... the sides and windows are not very straight up and down, they tip in twards the center of the car quite a bit. We also incorporated the NB's slight bump/lip on the trunk into the design, so the top tapers down into that shape at the rear and that puts a slight curve on the rear window so its not totally flat.
Here is an old pic of the wooden buck before it was glassed and tail was finished off to give you an idea of what I am talking about. Once again, ignore the window.
http://www.period13cobras.com/jes/warhorse/DSC02551.JPG

The hatch will open with the trunk release. We are putting an aggressive bevel on the edge that meets the back of the window on the oem top... the part that is perpendicular to the airflow and sticks out about an inch at the base of the top and makes wind-noise and drag. Lexan will be sealed and weatherproof, not just riveted on. The top and side windows will seal as well as OEM. Gas filler issue has been solved.... secondary door that doesnt interfere with original door.
The ducktail spoiler is not molded into the top, it is removable and we plan on offering one smaller more subtle spoiler and one bigger more aggressive spoiler. The deck is also being designed for mounting an APR wing and transmitting the load down through the tops mounting hardware into the trunk seal u-channel. There will be no hump to get in the way of rollbars like the oem top. It will weigh less then the OEM top, but we are not sure how much yet. Factor in the removal of the decklid and it should be a nice net loss of weight, although I'm pretty sure the AK top will likely hold an advantage in that department.
I am also working on attaching hardware that will be very stout and have about 1/4 inch of adjustment in it via a turnbuckle mechanism. Once you get it where you want it, it gets cross-bolted into a single structural piece. That specific hardware may not be available until mid to late summer... we'll see. I may not even do this because people can just use oem hardware or spec brackets. I may make my own laser cut powder coated spec brackets with a simplified adjusting system to come standard with the top, or be deleted as an option. Hinges will also be laser cut powder coated pieces.
Timeline TAKE WITH A GRAIN OF SALT... I should have pictures of the first outer shell on a car in a week or two. Then is on to some "beta-testing". My glass guys think by april they should be able to make bare glass tops at a rate of 4/week, send them to me and I will finish them (install seals, windows, hinges etc) and ship them. I dont know how fast I can complete them yet because I would like to ship them in various states of trim, from just fglass with window templates and a set of hinges for DIY guys and racers, to complete minus paint.
We plan on doing NA and NC versions if there is interest. We could realistically have them ready to ship by late fall. The main difference in versions will be side window shape.
We have a few other ideas for parts we are working on as well, but one thing at a time.
Pricing is still being figured out but I'd like to stay under $2600 with ALL attaching hardware, seals, installed windows and spoiler ready to paint and bolt on.... down to 2k or less for top, hatch hinges and lexan templates. AGAIN this is just a ballpark and subject to change. I will also consider having them painted to match OEM colors by special order.
I will have pictures of a black gel coat top on a black car very soon (without ducktail) to give you a better idea of how this thing is actually going to look and work. I think you will be pleased.
Of course, constructive feedback is appreciated.
thanks,
jes

[Echonova]

Maybe it's just me... But the whole reason I got a Miata was to have the top down. Factory hardtops can be taken off. The hatchback (while beautiful) kinda wrecks the whole purpose behind having a Miata... To me at least.


Now a hatchback with a targa top... I would give all of King Midas's silver for that.

[Doppelgänger]

I mean, it's still removable and you can still enjoy topless driving. I know I do, but I'd still get one for the winter and for the track.

[jzilla]

the last rendition is good. and if it comes out that way, I'll sell my hardtop to eric.

[theothersawyer]

the last rendition is good. and if it comes out that way, I'll sell my hardtop to Danny.

Fixed!

[Bernie]

the last rendition is good. and if it comes out that way, I'll trade my hardtop to Bernie for a cheeseburger.


Double fixted :lol:

[GVfanatic]

i guess its just me but i still cant decide whether i like the fastback or not. the subtle shape of the one in the last pic was great. i think to me for the larger one it just adds to much "***" to the car. The coupes in Japan look perfect cuz it still has its trunk and keeps it looking balanced. IDK i think i'd have to see it in person to get a feel for it but im startin to like it

[RotorNutFD3S]

the last rendition is good. and if it comes out that way, I'll give my hardtop to eric for free.

Final fix. I can just delete those other suggestions. :butt:

[theothersawyer]

Final fix. I can just delete those other suggestions. :butt:

Not cool!

[GVfanatic]

I think Ripley should changer his title from Forum Moderator to Forum Alterator

[jester911]

Well he does rule with an iron fist after all.:D

[MeFryRice]

I can't say whether I like it or not. I'll hold off until I see one in person I guess. As of now though, I can't say I'd buy one.

[nderwater]

I've always been a big fan of the Mazda designs:

http://27.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_kstpwgG9Qr1qzpumao1_500.jpg

http://s3.amazonaws.com/data.tumblr.com/tumblr_kstpzvSix21qzpumao1_500.jpg

And the Spoon top for the S2000:

http://motomania.tumblr.com/photo/1280/824142931/1/tumblr_kvgf0mtuuT1qa1rp8

...which this top looks similar to. I like!

[Doppelgänger]

http://www.warhorseperformance.com/jan2011/img_6643.jpg

[FooSchnickens]

http://everyboty.net/shared/emotipix/interested/peter%20griffin%20-%20go%20on...%20.jpg

[GVfanatic]

http://www.warhorseperformance.com/jan2011/img_6643.jpg

Something you're working on?????

...:jzilla:

[metalman]

Beyond the styling and quality aspect I think the pricing will be key. UNLESS just making a couple 'one offs' is the objective.
Often such items are priced beyond what makes fiscal sense in the big picture...as in, "spending $2700 for a roof for a $1500 car" type thing. The dilemma there is typically that those who would buy into that dont have the money to do so and those that have the money are too smart to do so. That leaves a only very few who dont care about throwing money away and/or enjoy being the center of attention with a unique part.
IMO if one could produce a quality unit of a nice style for something in the upper end range of a used hardtop $1000-1200 they might be onto something. I have no idea if that price point even works with what it takes to produce one.

Just random thoughts here. :)

[jzilla]

will the trunk be functional?

[Doppelgänger]

Yes..it will be a full liftback, not the removable section that AX has.

Kurt- The price won't be like a used HT, but the producer is keeping those points in mind. He plans on the NA to be less expensive than the NB abd the NC to cost more. Remember that all three require different R&D. Unlike how HTs fit all NA and NB chassis, these will be designed for each chassis. I know he will be offering a "bare bones" version for reduced cost though the details on that have not been sorted until the normal productions ones are completed.

The Lexan is a high-grade version that is much more scratch resistant, almost as good as glass. I also talked to the guy who does 3M SpeedFilm at Jim Ellis Porsche and he said that the new product is clear enough to put over Lexan and not obstruct clarity...so that will be another extra bit of protection without the expense of tempered glass.


Remember that the 1/4 window placement and design has NOT been finalized yet. The main points are the overall shape and the design of the rear hatch and all hardware.

http://www.warhorseperformance.com/jan2011/img_6630.jpg

http://www.warhorseperformance.com/jan2011/wp_06.jpg

http://www.warhorseperformance.com/jan2011/wp_02.jpg

The rear is a little high, but for reasons. First for headroom and rollbar clearance without making it look un-proportionately high in the middle. Second, Kamm principal aerodynamics. Third, a bit more room for "stuff" (it is a hatchback) and for running a rollbar as far back in the trunk on the frame as possible.
It is also higher in the center just like the NB trunk bump.... we just need to make the corners look better and finish the ducktail and 1/4 windows and it should look much more proportionate.
There are lots of cars that are "high" in the back, we just havent finished tweaking this one to look right.



Update.
I have new pics I will be posting tonight.... Just one for now. We are not as far as we expected to be as we've been dealing with a big order of shelby fiberglass.
We pulled a mold of the wooden buck, made a part and are now tweaking that first part, making some changes and getting all the fitting right etc to we can pull production molds off of it. So, my point is this is still technically a "pre-prototype" and VERY rough.... but it should give you a better idea of where this is going. We still have aesthetic issues to work out, but right now we are concentrating on fit.
We have lifted the back end up a bit to get more rollbar and headroom without messing with the roofline much. This makes the back corners look a bit high (A little too much like a Z4 for my taste), but that is being addressed. It doesnt look so hunchbacked in person when you see the whole car, and it looks awesome from behind, very curvy.... and the rear "hips" of the cars are nicely accentuated .The ducktail spoiler is VERY rough piece of foam right now that will be made into a mold plug. The spoiler will wrap around the sides more and will help take care of the aforementioned corner issue as well. We will also make a smaller lip spoiler.
The side roll up windows have a very close tolerance with the top. The top is basically flush with the glass and the gap between them is less then 1/8 inch, including the back edge of the window where the OEM hardtop has a huge step. This step has always bothered me, and now its gone and its pretty damn slick. The seals are also pretty simple and slick. The window sealing and everything associated with it like wind noise, weather sealing etc should be noticeably better then OEM.
The 1/4 window shape is still driving me nuts, and is oddly the single biggest issues we have left besides the gas cap.... and the gas cap is pretty much figured out.


http://www.warhorseperformance.com/jan2011/img_6630.jpg



So, to re-itterate issues we are dealing with in these pics:
-Back corners above tail light are still being shaped, as is the spoiler.
-can't decide on 1/4 window shapes and I cant believe how varied opinions are on this.

[jzilla]

i like it.

[Doppelgänger]

Well, there is a good chance you'll be seeing one locally as soon as the prototype is done....

[aaugman]

I love them, I'd put one on mine if the price was right also.

[jzilla]

Well, there is a good chance you'll be seeing one locally as soon as the prototype is done....

i volunteer my car. i put a ton of miles.... ;)

[RotorNutFD3S]

I'm still waiting for more completed progress to decide if I like it or would buy it. Right now the rear (that's parallel with the "finish panel") minus the spoiler is too tall and creates a wall effect on the back of the car IMO.

http://www.warhorseperformance.com/jan2011/wp_16.jpg

http://www.warhorseperformance.com/jan2011/wp_10.jpg

Almost looks like a slantback Humvee:

http://www.warhorseperformance.com/jan2011/wp_14.jpg

With the spoiler they have mocked up, it looks better, but still very tall overall.

http://www.warhorseperformance.com/jan2011/wp_05.jpg

Realizing that there is still development left to do I'm patiently waiting.

[Dr.Drew]

It looks like a 928 to me in the first pic.

[jzilla]

i should have taken a picture of my car, it had a perfect fastback shape on the third day of ice.

[oldgrayfrog]

Well I'll have to hope that they make a version for NAs, lots of folks who wanted to go nuts with a standalone ECU, decided to move to the NA platform, and I'm guessing that includes a bunch of track guys as well. If they make it for the NA, and i don't have to run around a la AK and find a bunch of seals etc, and it comes in between $2500-3000 with hatchback utility functional, I'll buy one for the winter months. As long as I can remove it as easily as the OEM HT, then I'm probably going to buy it, hell, I'm just about the target market. Middle age, likes playing with toys, lots of disposable income:)

[metalman]

and it comes in between $2500-3000 with hatchback utility functional, I'll buy one for the winter months. As long as I can remove it as easily as the OEM HT, then I'm probably going to buy it, hell, I'm just about the target market. Middle age, likes playing with toys, lots of disposable income:)


Ladies and gentlemen, we have here the aforementioned case in point in my post...

"That leaves a only very few who dont care about throwing money away....."

Everyone knows OGF likes sinking 15-25k into a 3k Miata. Damn!! I wish I had some expensive **** to sell him. Hmmm....maybe some 3k low back seats.
:lol: :lol: ;)

[Cameron]

This is interesting. Now would this work with the MSM? It has that little spoiler on the trunk.

[miata5620]

This is interesting. Now would this work with the MSM? It has that little spoiler on the trunk.

Spoilers can always be removed its only held on by 3 screws 2 tabs and some double sided tape.

[nickt93]

This is interesting. Now would this work with the MSM? It has that little spoiler on the trunk.

If this is anything like the Autokonexion fastback, I believe it will replace the trunk lid altogether.

[oldgrayfrog]

Ladies and gentlemen, we have here the aforementioned case in point in my post...

"That leaves a only very few who dont care about throwing money away....."

Everyone knows OGF likes sinking 15-25k into a 3k Miata. Damn!! I wish I had some expensive **** to sell him. Hmmm....maybe some 3k low back seats.
:lol: :lol: ;)


You know I want those damn Porsche lowback 904 seats!! Sell them to me!!
Your the one that says everything has a price!! Your old lady doesn't even like them! Sell them...to..me:cry:

[Cameron]

If this is anything like the Autokonexion fastback, I believe it will replace the trunk lid altogether.

I'll have to check that one out. I am having a hard time imagining how that works

[amaff]

I'll have to check that one out. I am having a hard time imagining how that works

Well, the first thing you do is take the 4 nuts off of the trunk where it connects to the hinges. From there, it really just lifts out. After that I imagine you'd position the new trunklid where the old one was, put the studs in the holes on the hinges, and run the 4 nuts back on.


But I could be mistaken :lol:

[RotorNutFD3S]

That's not how the Autokonexion works if what I've read is correct. It lifts out rather than swings on the hinges. This new one is supposed to work like stock.

[dmonroe2008]

how long till this thing is out

[silver280zx]

I am sorry, but that looks awful. Kinda reminds me of a pontiac aztec how the fastback is raised higher on the car than it should be.

[zoomzoomx5]

Interested to see how it turns out. I'm liking the look, but it all depends on how functional the thing is, and of course final pricing.
Any updates?

[jzilla]

as long as it doesnt turn out looking like an mx3.

[CMP]

http://www.warhorseperformance.com/blog.html

[oldgrayfrog]

as long as it doesnt turn out looking like an mx3.


^^^ This, is what it looks like to me. Thanks, that was bothering me. Why does everyone want to turn a convertible into a coupe? There are lots of great coupes out there. Buy one of those. The stock hardtop is fine, if you are looking to have something to go Spec Racing with, I don't think these will get approval for that, and who will pay the money for them? I don't see these coming out any cheaper than the 90 OEM hardtop which was $3000 new. Anyone heard a proposed price?

[miata5620]

Why does everyone want to turn a convertible into a coupe?

Maybe because people want a miata coupe but mazda only made a handful of them? Honestly I don't think I would buy one even if I had the money for it, maybe seeing one in person woud change my mind, too much money for what you get IMO.

[GVfanatic]

I loved having my hardtop just for the sheer sex factor it gave my car, but i enjoyed driving top down more than hardtop on